Tracking/ Autocross and Life Insurance

[catana]

So I went to the financial planner to discuss many things and once we got to life insurance things got a little tricky. I drove the S2000 to the meeting and said in passing that i track the car. This comment suddenly totally changed the tone of the conversation as now i could be a potential high risk cadidate. After discussing it further my planner suggested that i submit a complete description of what autocross and tracking are for the insurance companies to review in hopes that i could still get coverage at a somewhat normal rate. Things are still being reviewed.

Anyone else have this issue?

[gchislett]

I brought it up as well, but my policy was in place before I started racing, so it didn't affect me/my policy. ymmv.

[schmoo]

I had to complete a questionnaire for my work coverage. There were no problems. If it's wheel-to-wheel racing, I think that'll be a different story.

[Protege2886]

I had to complete a questionnaire for my work coverage. There were no problems. If it's wheel-to-wheel racing, I think that'll be a different story.

I had to complete a questionnaire for work as well. I was denied. The option was "auto racing". I'm starting to think that I should have just said "no" because they didn't have an accurate field for me to fill in.

[morrow]

But if you just go lapping, that isn't a timed event -- and isn't that what their concern is? Autocross is timed, but is way slower.

Jeannie

[gully]

This has come up numerous times over the years. You need to push but generally the question applies to Professional Auto Racing.

Ask them if its ok if you go fishing from a boat. The most dangerous sport in Canada I am sure they will say ok

Autosport is probably the safest sport there is but for some reason scares the un-informed

Look at the stastics for Snowmobile, ATV, fishing etc and compare with Autosport [I use that term rather than tracking, rally etc]

Pete g

[Protege2886]

So does anyone have any suggestions of how to approach the situation after being denied coverage initially?

(Sorry to Hijack your thread Mr. Catana )

[gchislett]

Get a broker.

[Robert Lefebvre]

I remember this back about 10 years ago when I took out life insurance. I talked to my broker about it, told him exactly what it is I do, and he said that was fine. He also said that if I take it up in the future, that was fine too. The question only applies to the current time.

But, I always wonder what will happen should I have to test this...

If I broker tells a mis-truth, it is not beholden on the insurance company. Brokers can say whatever they want to sell the insurance. If the insurance company disagrees with what a broker told you, you're SOL. Your only recourse is to sue the broker.

[gchislett]

Except... you'd be dead. Last thing you'd want is to have your family suing your insurance company after your death.

I'm sure every insurance company has their own policy. Best to be upfront about it and find out if you're insured. It'd suck to pay into premiums and NOT be covered... Then again, as previously mentioned... you'd be dead.

[PMcD]

There has been precident setting case law on this matter in Canada. Here it is:

Carnell et al. v. Aviva Canada et al.
[Indexed as: Carnell v. Aviva Canada]
105 O.R. (3d) 429
2010 ONSC 6359
Ontario Superior Court of Justice,
Mullins J.
December 2, 2010*

Insurance -- Automobile insurance -- Exclusions -- Insured losing control of his vehicle while par-ticipating in driver education event at racetrack -- Event designed to teach participants to drive at higher speeds in controlled environment -- Racing and timing devices prohibited -- Insured not using automobile in race or speed test at time of accident.

The insured owned a modified Porsche. He was participating in a driver education event operated by the Porsche Club of America at a racetrack when he lost control and rolled the vehicle. Section 4.2 of Statutory Conditions -- Automobile Insurance, O. Reg. 777/93 prohibits use of an automobile in a race or speed test. The insured applied for a declaration that he did not fall within that exclusion at the time of the accident.
Held, the application should be granted.
The driver education event was designed to teach participants to drive at higher speeds in controlled environments. Racing and timing devices were not allowed, and there was no start or finish line. A race is a test between rivals. Factors common to a race are as follows: vehicles operating at high speed, in close proximity, over a fixed distance; abrupt lane changes; blocking; bold manoeuvres; jockeying for position; and high-risk passing. At the time of the accident, the insured was not en-gaged in a competitive activity that met the definition of a race, nor was he seeking to test the speed of his vehicle.

Cases referred to
Blackstock v. Insurance Corp. of British Columbia, [1982] B.C.J. No. 1480, 138 D.L.R. (3d) 563, 38 B.C.L.R. 339, 15 A.C.W.S. (2d) 387 (S.C.); Gore Mutual Insurance Co. v. Rossignoli, [1964] 2 O.R. 274, [1964] O.J. No. 758, 45 D.L.R. (2d) 216 (C.A.); [page430] McGuiness v. Canadian Gen-eral Insurance Co., [1976] B.C.J. No. 82, 66 D.L.R. (3d) 161, [1976] I.L.R. Â1-740 at 106 (S.C.); Mildner v. Saskatchewan Government Insurance Office, [1962] S.J. No. 85, 40 W.W.R. 86, [1962] I.L.R. Â1-076 at 367 (Q.B.); R. v. Flannery, [1982] O.J. No. 1885 (C.A.); R. v. Machado, [2010] O.J. No. 387, 2010 ONSC 277, 92 M.V.R. (5th) 58
Statutes referred to
Insurance Act, R.S.O. 1990, c. I.8 [as am.]
Rules and regulations
Statutory Conditions -- Automobile Insurance, O. Reg. 777/93 (Insurance Act), s. 4.2

APPLICATION for a declaration that the insured did not fall within the statutory exclusion at the time of the accident.

Bruce Jaeger, for applicants.
Andrew Davidson, for respondents.

[1] MULLINS J.: -- The applicants seek a declaration determinative of the applicant's claim for $51,250, pursuant to the terms of an automotive insurance policy issued by the respondent. The en-titlement depends upon the interpretation of whether or not the activities of the applicant Johan Carnell, at the time the loss, fall within the exclusion expressed in s. 4.2 of Statutory Conditions -- Automobile Insurance, O. Reg. 777/93 (Insurance Act). This prohibits use of the automobile in a race or speed test. The parties ask this court to determine the question on the basis of the material filed, there being no material issues as to fact.
The Facts
[2] The applicants owned a 1986 Porsche 911 coupe. The vehicle had been purchased in 1996 and modified in 2001, such that it was rebuilt to 3.3 turbo Porsche specifications. With the modification, the vehicle had an estimated output of 450 to 500 horsepower.
[3] On July 24, 2009, Mr. Carnell, while participating in an event at the Mosport International Raceway, lost control and rolled the vehicle. The vehicle was a total loss.
[4] Mosport International Raceway is promoted as a world renowned racetrack, designed to chal-lenge a driver's control over his car. It is a facility which permits high-speed operation of motor ve-hicles and features abrupt elevation changes combined with camber changes.
[5] The applicant is a member of the Porsche Club of America. The Porsche Club of America operates driver education events at the Mosport International Raceway and has done so since 1988. [page431] The applicant was operating his Porsche on the Mosport track during one of these events.
[6] The stated purpose of the events according to the Porsche Club of America is to deliver edu-cation and opportunity for the driver. It fosters safe and enjoyable exploration of a driver's skills and the performance characteristics of their automobile.
[7] According to the driver education handbook of the club, drivers are required to have helmets and have numbers on their car. Various flags are utilized regarding track conduct, including a checkered flag.
[8] The applicant describes the driver education events as closely monitored programs in which participants learn to drive at higher speeds in controlled environments.
[9] The events have rules regarding driving activities to address the safety of the participants and their cars. Racing is not allowed. Timing devices are not permitted. The events have no timing, scoring, start or finish line. Participants drive in designated groups of those considered to share the same level of skills. The type of vehicle is not a consideration in selecting the group, only the driver skills.
[10] The programs are designed to allow participants to learn and practise advanced driving skills. As the skill of the driver improves, the driver may progress to more advanced groups.
[11] The events are monitored by instructors, who are trained by the Porsche Club of America. Passing is only permitted in designated zones and only after the car ahead signals to the other ve-hicle that it may pass and on which side of the vehicle they should pass. The events are monitored by event officials to ensure the rules are being adhered to and to redress any breach of the rules.
[12] Mr. Carnell was participating in an instructor's session at a Porsche Club of America Driver Education event being held on the weekend when the loss occurred. He was driving between 90 and 100 kilometres per hour. It was 15 minutes into a 20-minute session. His crash occurred with no other vehicles in sight.
The Law
[13] The terms "race", or "speed test", are not defined in the Insurance Act. Each term may be considered to have different meanings. Mildner v. Saskatchewan Government Insurance Office, [1962] S.J. No. 85, 40 W.W.R. 86, [1962] I.L.R. Â1-076 at 367 (Q.B.), cited by the respondent, says that a race is a contest [page432] involving speed, whereas a speed test connotes merely a test of speed. In Mildner, the driver was attempting to determine the maximum speed at which he could navigate the track, while taking practice laps before a race. There were no other vehicles on the track. In McGuinness v. Canadian General Insurance Co., [1976] B.C.J. No. 82, 66 D.L.R. (3d) 161 (S.C.), the plaintiff was considered to be in a speed test, as he was trying to determine the maximum speed at which his car could travel a measured quarter-mile.
[14] Blackstock v. Insurance Corp. of British Columbia, [1982] B.C.J. No. 1480, 138 D.L.R. (3d) 563 (S.C.) was cited to illustrate the significance of the event taking place on a racetrack or drag strip.
[15] Factors common to a race are vehicles operating at high speed, in close proximity, over a fixed distance; abrupt lane changes; blocking; bold manoeuvres; jockeying for position; and high-risk passing.
[16] A race is a test between rivals, according to R. v. Machado, [2010] O.J. No. 387, 2010 ONSC 277; Gore Mutual Insurance Co. v. Rossignoli, [1964] 2 O.R. 274, [1964] O.J. No. 758 (C.A.); and R. v. Flannery, [1982] O.J. No. 1885 (C.A.).
[17] Counsel agree that the rule of interpretation to be applied to an exclusion within an insurance contract is that it is to be strictly and narrowly interpreted.
[18] I conclude that Johan Carnell was, on July 24, 2009, when he crashed and rolled the vehicle insured by the respondents, exercising his driving skills in an environment which was, by design and intended purpose, such as to challenge his skills and the performance attributes of his vehicle. He was not, however, engaged in a competitive circumstance that would meet the definition of a race, nor was he seeking to test the speed of his vehicle, when and where he lost control and crashed. I find, therefore, that his conduct does not fall within the exclusion from coverage. The applicants are entitled to indemnity under the contract of insurance.
[19] Counsel may make submissions as to costs within 30 days.
Application granted.

we discussed this yesterday at the track. Although it is a supreme court decision and can be referred to it doesn't mean that a refusal to insure can't be challenged by the companies on a case by case action involving their huge battery of lawyers in court. They would probably lose but do you really want to go through all that with your very expensive lawyer too?
Its not clear also if insurance companies may make specific policy exclusions to this although it says you can't be denied insurance on the matter or a claim. Probably why we still ask about it. Even though its set in stone (or in this case legal precident) is it really? I don't know of any case where anyone challenged the insurance company when denied after the fact and this case. No good answer here but maybe a good MCO member lawyer could offer opinions on this. I'd be interested in hearing what a legal beagle had to say. Interesting also that the insurance company involved so happens to be mine. When I got my insurance with them just a few years ago I was never even asked the question nor was there any form regarding it. Believe me, I check the fine print also.

[gchislett]

That case covered the car. Not sure if it's different for life insurance.

[PMcD]

oops. At least in answers the car question.

[catana]

I provided a very detailed description of autocross and lapping days so we shall see what happens.

As mentioned above it is very important to be up front regarding these matters so that it is clear and understood by both parties, because if it is called in to question after the fact the cost of litigation usually prevents anyone from persuing the isurance company.

One option that my broker was presenting was that i could possibly get standard rates if i agreed to not being covered in the event that an accident happened at the track.
Not sure the girlfriend liked that too much.

In summary after reading above,

-Many purchased coverage before they started lapping so it doesn't apply
-others were not asked when they purchased coverage (I would be very careful with this and double check that you would still be covered)

I will keep everyone posted of the results.

thanks

[wing]

My uncle is my broker issued him, he said what Geoff saud. Do you Race now? I said no, he said anything you do now is covered.

[subaphil]

I went thourhg the same thing last year. Got some new fancy life insurance, and my broker saw the Miata in my garage, all decked out with my numbers on it and my helmet on the trunk lid... He asked... After explaining to him what lapping and autocrossing was, he asked me to write a detailed description of what I do. After sending it in, I waited for a week, then got a phone call saying everything was fine. They wrote on my file that I do lapping and autocrossing, and I am insured in case of an accident in those circustances. The price of the policy did not go up.

Like Geoff said, I'm not worried about the car. My main concern was taking care of my wife and daughter in case something happened to me. Now I know she's taken care of if sometyhing happens on the tarck. The last thing I want is for her to have to jump through hoops and go to court with the insurance company, while grieving the death of the best husband she ever had.

Our broker works for Sunlife Insurance.

[gchislett]

while grieving the death of the best husband she ever had... SO FAR

fixed...

My wife still introduces me as her first husband.

[PMcD]

[subaphil]

while grieving the death of the best husband she ever had... SO FAR

fixed...

My wife still introduces me as her first husband.

Don't you put ideas in Tara's head!

[gchislett]

Be careful... she could do better.

[Protege2886]

Our broker works for Sunlife Insurance.

Really?! That's the company my work policy goes through. They are the ones who denied me
I think I need to make some phon calls.

[subaphil]

Our broker works for Sunlife Insurance.

Really?! That's the company my work policy goes through. They are the ones who denied me
I think I need to make some phon calls.

Get a broker, different service. Geoff Chislett will always offer better service than the bank for a mortage. Brokers offer a level of service that a "big guy" can't match...

[DCotie]

I went through this when I recently added some life insurance.

I rally-X and I had to explain to them what it is because; 1) It is timed and 2) It is racing. Once I explained it no issue.

[mightymousetech]

Hmm, I had no problem getting life insurance, even after I explained that I race. I just had to fill out a form regrading speeds reached, sanctioning bodies, type of vehicle etc etc etc.

[rmicroys]

I'm with Chris on that, it's very easy to be insured while racing. I filled out the supplemental risk form back in 2002 or something when I got additional life insurance to cover our road racing specifically. No biggie. I don't think it affected our rates much at all - if it does, then you need to find a different broker/underwriter.