Sim Racing: Ask an Expert

[John Powell]

It seems to me that there are those who are experts on sim racing, those who know a fair bit, and those (like me) who know almost nothing. I thought that, in view of this, it might be a good idea to start an "Ask an Expert" thread. So shall I start it off? [burnout]

As my original questions were posted on two different threads, first here's a summary:

[quote] ... I actaully do have an old Sony Playstation (model SCPH-5501) which was given to me years ago and I think still works, and I was wondering if a steering wheel and pedal set-up is available for it. It came with GP2 discs, which I found to be a PITA to play with the hand controllers, which is why I gave up on it. I'd also like to know if I could use any of the newer racing games on it. ... [/quote]

[quote] ... I'm considering buying a wheel set up (and put it in the Racing Budget as "driver training", and ShopRBC has three choices [url=http://www.shoprbc.com/ca/shop/categoryProducts.php?category=147]<here>[/url]from $95 to $243 including the one on sale, and like some advice on which one would be the best value for money (advantages/disadvantages) for a starter in video racing?

- Of course, on top of the wheel thingy I'll still have to get the GP2(?) plus ... what? [/quote]

Now from the answers I received, and thanks to those who gave advice

[smile] , the consensus seems to be:

1. The old Sony isn't worth bothering with anymore as it gives no steering wheel feedback.
2. A PS2 at about $130.00 would be a good replacement, along with GranTurismo4 at about $30.00.
3. The Logitech Momo wheel at $95.00 is a good value for money for a starter gaming set-up.

The "givens" here are that I'd need something that will plug into my TV, I'm on dial-up [sad] so I won't be doing any on-line gaming, and as I've been doing heel-and-toe downshifts since I bought the MG Midget in 1961, I really don't need much additional practice with a clutch pedal and an H shifter. [wink]

So, experts, if I get a PS2 and GT4, and Momo wheel/pedals from shopRBC, has the Old Fart got things right? [wiggle]

[rmicroys]

I guess it depends if one's home PC has enough horsepower to play the games you want, or if it is more affordable to go to a game console to get the games you want.

So, I guess, it depends, which particular sims do you want to play? What tracks and/or cars do you want to sim race? That certainly drives some of the choices. I am quite impressed with GTL and rFactor. I have yet to run GTR2... so I personally would lean towards getting the PC to run them if your hardware is up to it - otherwise you have to evaluate the entire cost of all the hardware/games/controllers.

[Klinn]

I’m not trying to sound elitist, but there are two broad classes of driving games -- arcade-style and simulations. The difference is realistic feel vs. difficulty.

Opinions differ, but generally [i]any[/i] driving game on [i]any[/i] console falls into the arcade-style group. Forsa Motorsport on the Xbox comes closest to providing any sort of realistic feel, but even it can’t compare to the good sims on the PC such as GT Legends, GTR, Papyrus’ Nascar 2003, rFactor, Richard Burns Rally, even good old standbys such as Grand Prix Legends and Sports Car GT.

Personally, I think anyone of your experience will become frustrated with the arcade-style games. Once you get used to it, you’ll be wondering why the car behaves in such an unrealistic way. Don’t get me wrong, they have their place -- I throw them on when folks come over who are not car nuts, they just want to have a good time zooming around bouncing off walls and hitting the NOS button.

A sim will feel a lot more satisfying, it will behave much more like a real car. The price is two-fold - you need to put in more time to learn how to drive it (not a problem for us car nuts) and you need a PC which is up to the task. Depending on your budget, that can be a real stumbling block. GPL, being an older sim, will run fine on lower powered PCs, but it's pretty hard to get ahold of these days. Anyway, if there’s any way you can go for it, I’ll bet the PC-based sims will be more up your... umm, track... :-)

[JGraves]

The console based games are low effort (insert disk and drive), reliable (only one hardware config for the developers to test on), have more visual polish and in some cases (GT3/GT4/others?) have a huge selection of cars and modifications available. On the downside, you are stuck with the original game (typically no add-ons), the AI (computer drivers) aren't very bright and they can be overly forgiving WRT crashing, etc.

The PC based sims are can be low effort, there are typically "mods" available (usually ad-on tracks (Mosport, VIR, the 'glen, 3 rivers, Trembling, etc are available for GTL), "skins" (car graphics), occasionally cars, etc.), the AI is typically quite good (realistic and reasonably quick), the car physics are very good in the newer sims, and crashing/damage is somewhat realistic. On the downside, there can be reliability/stability issues as not all PC's are created equal (or the same), the effort increases as you add on tracks, etc., the car selection is limited and they can be unforgiving to the novice gamer.

I hadn't really touched a racing sim between getting a PS2 with GT3 in 2001 until recently with GTL and playing on-line with the MCO crowd. I'm really enjoying GTL, especially the large fields of cars in the single player mode and real human opponents when playing on-line. Kevin and I had a great race at Mosport last Friday and I had fun tonight starting from the back of a 36 car field in a '65 Alfa with the difficulty maxed out.

[John Powell]

Well I thought I had it figured out, but now ... [eek]

On-line stuff is out as someone mentioned on one of the other threads that this doesn't work well with dial-up. As for the computer, it's an HP that's about four years old and the System Information window says this: "HP Pavillion, AMD Athlon(tm) XP2400+, 2.00GHz, 512MB of RAM", which to me means only that it's more powerfull and quicker than our old 464(?). [rolleyes2] And the other issue is that to use the computer I first have to get a [b]really big[/b] crowbar to first pry Susan's hands off the keyboard, or wait until after supper when she's watching TV or when she's out. With something I can plug into the TV, I can use it pretty well anytime I want during the day as I no longer have to go out to work ... retirement has its benefits. [cheers] So, a console game may not be as good as one that runs on a PC, but the way I figure it, it sure beats putting on my lined coveralls in the winter, going out to my poorly heated garage, sitting in the RX7, and going "vroom, vroom" (or should that be "zoom, zoom"? [wink] ) while playing with the wheel, pedals and shifter. [wcar]

Unless, of course, there's a better idea? [:))]

[XL51]

John,

As the others have said here, there is a night and day difference between console games and racing sims. Before getting either I would suggest trying one of each first in the type of game you are interested in if haven't already.

Any 10 year old without a driver's license should have a console [right Klaus? hehehe] or you can run into a Future Shop to have a go. Lots of forum posters have PC based sims to try - you can try mine, just PM me.

If come hell or high water you're getting the console, make 100% sure the Momo is compatible with the PS2. The force feedback in a sim is not at all like a console which in the past has created compatibility probs. The sims FFB is very detailed and gradual, a console FFB is like a joke store joy buzzer. This is not to say the console FFB is bad, just not compatible (at least in older models like the Momo). The logitech site should tell you.

I know...too much info - you just want to race! Hope this helps you get there a bit.

[rmicroys]

Also with the sim racing, you can make it rather arcade like too. One can turn on all the driver aids, traction control, spin recovery, blah blah blah... so that it makes it easier for people to drive them. I first was driving GTL and GTR2 with the 'automatic clutch' feature on, and was wondering why the car would never twitch if I did something dumb like shifting gears while braking turning in and never spin. The computer was clutching perfectly for me ;) Turned it off, and voila! Found myself sideways a few times so I know it works now. So there is a lot of tuning that can be done to make it either very real, or very game-ish. For 30$ at EB games for GTR2 and GT Legends, one really can't go wrong. Quite impressed.

[PMcD]

I have been doing this since 2002 competitively and have logged over 200 races and 7 championship series since so I guess this qualifies me to speak. Johnny, most of what has been said it true here. We have a league of gentlemen racers here: http://users.hfx.eastlink.ca/~mackaypenny/gplreg.html

We race GPL and RFactor currently. Here is what I've learned over the last 5 years. I'm currently looking for a good GTR2 league.

-You can race with dialup. We have guys on laptop and with dialup. You have a higher risk of disco (and frame rate issues) with it but it certainly can be done.

- Game consoles are just what they say. Games. You want a simulator which means computer simming. As far as computers go, with GPL you didn't need much but with todays sims such as RFactor you need a minimum 2.0 processor, 1 gig of ram, and a good video card. If not you will have problems running and/or staying in the game.

- I'm afraid to say that GPL (the best racing sim ever made bar none for its time) has now been eclipsed by GTR2 and RFactor which are so easy to install and manage so a lot of leagues are moving on and thus the computer needs as mentioned above.

- GTL/GTR can be purchased at Future ship for 30 bucks, a good momo wheel and pedals the same for 80 bucks and you download RFactor off the net for 47 dollars canadian. The new 35 is expensive still and for someone on the cheap not worth it yet. Note the momo users. Put two pieces of wood between the paddles and wheel so you don't pull too hard on the paddles and break them. Been there twice. No problems now.

- IMO the best games for physics reality are GTR2 and RFactor. I am in close contact and race with guys who are beta testors and track creators.

- If you need some computer upgrades Tiger Direct.ca or Orleans Computers are the best bets IMO. I do everything on the cheap so you'll like that.

- If you have two computers do not game through a router connection. Use your gaming computer as your host connection.

- This is addictive. You will like it and be amazed at how close it is in physics vs reality. I sim all winter and when I step into my car or kart in the spring I am right on the money every time as my hand eye (and foot)coordination is always there.

....anyway, a few tidbits to ponder. Don't let it overwhelm you, its really very easy to set up. (GPL is an exception and very difficult). There is a huge amount of support everywhere and also right in Ottawa.

Pat M.

[JGraves]

[quote="PMcD"]- If you have two computers do not game through a router connection. Use your gaming computer as your host connection.
[/quote]

Pat, can you offer any insight as to why this is an issue (or point to an on-line reference)? Greg and I have had may issues while both trying to play on-line through a router and single internet connection. There hasn't been any obvious issues with on-line gameplay with just going through a router or even when someone else is downloading video or connected to work via VPN.

PS You should join us Friday night.

[XL51]

Pat, it's Kevin S. (black Maxima - former kart teammate of Andy B. and Pierre G at the NCKC - raced with Dave N. et al). Haven't talked since the MCO Calabogie day. I had no idea you are a hard core sim guy. You are just the person we need to sort out some tech issues over here for our informal race nights. I don't know too much about it as I am just getting into the sim online stuff. PM me when you can - I'll give you a call.

Your league sounds fun (looks like you and Neil are neck and neck) and I'd be interested in testing the waters in the future. Last year Dave N. convinced me to come out as a league noobie - it was lots of fun banging wheels with them - even if only in virtual form. This year, sadly they race Tues nights which is not possible for me.

As Jeff said, if you have time come out and drive with us. It's deliberately not too organized and the emphasis is strictly on fun but you can wrestle a 76 Vette around on crap tires and show us a thing or two. In the very least, it's good practice for your Vette on 615s this year at Calabogie MSP.

RE: the G25 - Trace got me one for Xmas - I love it. I am definitely faster paddle shifting a Momo. It's easier and requires less concentration. I'll gladly give up a few tenths online tho to practice my rev matching for the real track. Great fun.

Talk to you soon.

Kevin

[PMcD]

Jeff, my understanding of it from Dave North (sim racer and tech guru) is that there's just nothing like that cable connection direct. Routing by signal to that second computer loses signal strength and cause FPS (frames per second issues. Of course because the signal is travelling through the air there can be outside interuptions that will also cause issues.

Hi Kev, I would be glad to help. My home number is 834-2388. I have played with my GTR2 and GTL games and although my passion is vintage cars ( I can't afford a TVR Griffith or a Sunbeam Tiger so I cry a lot about that) I find the physics in GTR2 much more conducive to beginners racing with the better grip of the tires. GTL is great but the cars are much harder to drive and crashing around into each other is just plain league aggravation.
Dave wanted to race with us on Thurdays and I with him on Tuesdays but alas schedules won't permit that. After next weeks race in GPL FV I will stop racing that game which will free up some time for me to race GTR2 which I am completely enamoured with. The C5R Corvette is for me lol. The 550 Maranello and the BMW are hot too.
Our league will be racing Formula BMW (RFactor) this summer and of course I'll be in the venerable LT1 at Calabogie once gain farting around (faster).

BTW, we have opened up a motorsports lounge in the St. Anthonys soccer club downtown and plans are to add 8 sim computer stations for on line racing. Never mind Iplay. this will be awesome.

Also, We are preparing 6-10 race karts for a new corporate driving experience at our race track in Quyon for opening later this summer. Groups of guys and gals can book in and come up for a day of racing and 90kph one inch off the ground with us. Look for more on this later.
Our website is http://quyonracetrack.homestead.com/quyonmainpage.html

[XL51]

[quote="PMcD"]GTL is great but the cars are much harder to drive and crashing around into each other...[/quote]

So I'll take that as a "we'll see you Friday" then.
Any NCKC karter who's run spec tires at Karters Korners first thing in the morning knows that tire grip is for sissies anyways. [burnout]
Good luck in your last race and say hi to Neil for me.

[John Powell]

OK, let's see now:
[quote="PMcD"]
-You can race with dialup. We have guys on laptop and with dialup. You have a higher risk of disco (and frame rate issues) with it but it certainly can be done.Pat M.[/quote]
What's "disco"?
[quote="PMcD"]
- Game consoles are just what they say. Games. You want a simulator which means computer simming. As far as computers go, with GPL you didn't need much but with todays sims such as RFactor you need a minimum 2.0 processor, 1 gig of ram, and a good video card. If not you will have problems running and/or staying in the game.
Pat M.[/quote]
So, if I want to run a PC game I have to do some up-grades on my computer. I presume that the 2.00GHz shown on my System Information is the processor, so that should be OK, but at 512MB of RAM I'm going to have to add another 500MB, right? As for the video card, I'll have to find out what we have and then perhaps someone could let me know if it's OK.

Of course, the big job will be to negotiate more computer time with "she who must be obeyed". [goof]

And, of course, to see if I can get a look at some gaming systems that are not quite as close to the stone age as the stuff I now have. [razz]

[XL51]

John - disco is disconnected. One of the limitations of online gaming is that folks from time to time get booted from within the game for lag, buggy software or other connection issues. Having a faster or more stable connection means you may get less of it, but it happens to everyone.

Pat or someone more tech oriented will have to help you with the computer setup stuff.

[John Powell]

[quote="XL51"]John - disco is disconnected. [/quote]
Thank God! For a moment there I thought "Disco" was coming back. [pissed]

[rmicroys]

Disco? It's been back for a while. They just keep changing it's name to something else to make the kids all think it's new.

[Guest]

hey cmon I did pretty good at the discos. They had lots of dollies [wiggle]

John, your computer is fine. The processor is good. Here's what you need to upgrade.
1. Check if you have an open slot for ram. You can buy another 512 megs for 30 bucks and plug it in. Instant 1 gig of ram. Your onboard sound should be good. Mine is.
2. If you have onboard video thats well, not good. I bought a 256 meg video card for 100 dollars from orleans computer. Plug in it. Bobs your uncle. You can get them even cheaper. A 128 meg card is 50 bucks or so.
3. Get yourself a momo wheel and pedals from Futureshop ( I hate that place) and the game is there for 30 bucks also. Voila your in to GTR and GTL.
4. If you want to get RFactor its a download right into your computer from the net for 47 bucks canadian on your visa.

....your looking at 30+80+100 (or 50) or about 170-210 and your there for gaming. Its just about what I have except I have rogers cable to run it. I raced with dialup for two years though.

We just raced RFactor F3 euro tonight at the Glen and we have guys from all over canada and the states and italy running with us. Lots of guys retired. They're very fast.

[PMcD]

Oops forgot to log in.

Pat.

[John Powell]

[quote="Anonymous"]hey cmon I did pretty good at the discos. They had lots of dollies [wiggle]

John, your computer is fine. The processor is good. Here's what you need to upgrade.
1. Check if you have an open slot for ram. You can buy another 512 megs for 30 bucks and plug it in. Instant 1 gig of ram. Your onboard sound should be good. Mine is.
2. If you have onboard video thats well, not good. I bought a 256 meg video card for 100 dollars from orleans computer. Plug in it. Bobs your uncle. You can get them even cheaper. A 128 meg card is 50 bucks or so.
3. Get yourself a momo wheel and pedals from Futureshop ( I hate that place) and the game is there for 30 bucks also. Voila your in to GTR and GTL.
4. If you want to get RFactor its a download right into your computer from the net for 47 bucks canadian on your visa.

....your looking at 30+80+100 (or 50) or about 170-210 and your there for gaming. Its just about what I have except I have rogers cable to run it. I raced with dialup for two years though.

We just raced RFactor F3 euro tonight at the Glen and we have guys from all over canada and the states and italy running with us. Lots of guys retired. They're very fast.[/quote]
OK Pat, that sounds good, and thanks. 1. I can check and 3. sounds good. For 2. I can't find out from the system info what card we have, but maybe Susan knows as she bought the PC. In any event, from what I've seen on our monitor screen for photos, videos (short ones) and graphics, the detail (resolution?) seems OK. As for 4., about how long would it take to download RFactor on dial-up at 28.8 Kbps?

And as for Discos, it wasn't the "talent" I was complaining about, but the "music". [rolleyes2]

[PMcD]

RFactor is a huge download at 668 megs. With dialup your looking at a week [insane]
no no just kidding but at least 3 maybe 4 hours. Took me over an hour and I'm on cable light. You just drop the download to the bar and it will do its thing. You can do it overnight also so you won't miss the phone.
Actually for you, if your not in a hurry you can now order it on CD. Running these games is all about flow through ram. 1 gig of ram and video card ram as mentioned will suffice. Your processor is great.

P.

[Jodie]

Oh, hey, I have a question about upgrading my RAM
Right now I have 2 slots each with 256MB DDR. In the other 2 slots, can I put in 2 512MB sticks or does it have to be 256 across the board?

[luker]

For the most part, most modern motherboards will allow you to do whatever you want in your memory slots. However, refer the manual it will tell you what the supported configs are.

[Jodie]

OK, looks like I can do that then. If I plug it in there do I have to tell the computer it's there or will it figure it out on its own?

[luker]

It will figure it out on it's own. You may however get a warning on boot about the configuration of the machine changing. Press whatever key it tells you to continue.

[Jodie]

Thanks!

I picked it up and put it in...what a world of difference!

[IMG]http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y52/FCS/RAM.jpg[/IMG]